dcfandomcom-20200222-history
Talk:Bruce Wayne (Earth-One)
First Appearance The Earth-One Batman's first appearance is hard to place. Some say it was Detective Comics #327, the 1964 debut of the "New Look" Batman with the yellow oval on his chest. This cannot be the first Earth-One Batman story, though because of the JLA. They debuted 4 years before the "New Look" and Batman was a founding member. I have gone with Mike Voiles' choice of the first Superman/Batman team-up in Superman #76 (1952). I'm not entirely sure this should be the issue listed, but it should definitely be no later than the JLA's debut in The Brave and the Bold #28 (1960). DrJohnnyDiablo (talk) 07:10, June 23, 2014 (UTC) : stated that was the first appearance of the Silver-Bronze age Batman. Unless there was an official change in that information Who's Who supersedes fan speculation. Any contractions can be written off as occurring on another Earth other then Earth-One.--BruceGrubb (talk) 14:42, December 27, 2016 (UTC) ::Who's Who might be an official source for this kind of information, but it doesn't mean it is entirely accurate. For the sake of indexing information, they ignore several continuity and chronological loopholes in the publication history. Such is the case with Batman. The character was featured in stories with Earth-One elements much prior to Detective 327. DC used that comic because it provided them with a seemingly "clean cut" between Earth-One and Earth-Two, but that is also inaccurate. Prior to Detective 327, Batman had already met with Batwoman, Bat-Mite and the others. If that wasn't Earth-One Batman, it much less likely that it was Earth-Two Batman. "The Earth-One Batman's first appearance is hard to place." For this reason, the appearance in the infobox is up to debate and I really don't see a definitive answer for which one should be included. However, whichever one is chosen, there must be some notes explaining the reason why there might be more than one "First Appearance". S.S. (talk) 16:24, December 27, 2016 (UTC) :::As I have mentioned elsewhere Who's Who came out long before the Crisis on Infinite Earths: The Compendium which actually got into much of the nitty gritty of what happened on what Earth. In addition to whatever Earth-B2 (Earth-Forty-Six) covered as well as Alternate Earth-Two (Earth-Two-A) we have a patchwork quilt of alternative Earths in the 1950-1960 period.--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:24, December 27, 2016 (UTC) ::::I will point as that hypertime (which is still accepted as part of the DCU) explains all Earth-One "elements" showing up with regards to Batman prior to Detective 327. cites as the first appearance of "Pre-Crisis Earth-One Gotham City". I have to ask given how much weight we give to official sources why in the name of sanity are we placing credence on something that at the end of the day is effectively fanwank?--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:15, September 15, 2017 (UTC) :::::Because said "fanwank" could still be justified by the "official fanwank" that is hypertime. If Earth-One Batman appeared in Superman 76 or B&B 28 (prior to Detective 327); due to "hypertime", then aren't those still earlier appearances of the character, despite what official sources say? - S.S. (talk) 17:24, September 15, 2017 (UTC) :::::The DC Enc doesn't break down first apps per universe, and neither does the Essential Batman Encyclopedia. However, the Essential Wonder Woman Encyclopedia does. It lists (1954) for Earth-1 Batman and (1947) for Earth-1 Superman (also, (1945) for Superboy). --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 17:32, September 15, 2017 (UTC) ::::::Except two official sources state that the Earth-One Batman and the Earth-One Gotham both first appeared in : and . Also it can be shown that the Essential Wonder Woman Encyclopedia messed up: it uses "Earth-124" for what is actually Earth-124.1 because there is a Earth-124.2 as well. Since comes after Essential Wonder Woman Encyclopedia, agrees with DC's Who's Who, and partly agrees with what was said by Bob Rozakis (who gave two issues more then three years apart as the Earth-One Batman's first appearance) the majority of the sources point to . To use the old axiom "Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains no matter how improbable is the truth". Since two official sources state that the Earth-One Batman and the Earth-One Gotham both first appeared in the Batman (and Gotham) appearances before that issue must be from some other Earth. Either we expand Earth-Two-A (also official) beyond the Golden Age Superman given or we invoke hypertime. Occam's razor points to hypertime.--BruceGrubb (talk) 18:03, September 15, 2017 (UTC) Except, many issues prior to Detective 327, are most definitely Earth-One, as it's been pointed out above. The JL, Batwoman, Bat-Mite, numerous villains and a myriad of stories are all referenced in the Earth-One continuity post Detective 327 and are most certainly not Earth-Two or Earth-Two-A. Hypertime it is... - S.S. (talk) 18:12, September 15, 2017 (UTC) :DC #327 may be the "de jure" first appearance, it is not the "de facto" one (to borrow some legal terms). EWWE's first appearance raises the question why it isn't , as that was an Earth-One Superman story. Possibly an oversight? Who knows. We should note the discrepancy, not use fanwank to ignore the inconvenient. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 18:36, September 15, 2017 (UTC) ::Except many "most definitely Earth-One stories" happened elsewhere like Earth-Twelve, Earth-Thirty-Two, Earth-124.1 to mention a few. Then you have the fact that hypertime tributaries can leaven and return to the reality they diverged from and leave "charting an entirely new course. An old friend is remembered suddenly recalled after years of being forgotten. A scrap of history becomes misremembered even reinvented in the common wisdom." (sic) . Heck, New Earth Batman even "remembered" Earth-One Batwoman even though they never had met! ::This is what hypertime is capable of. But the kicker is that these hypertime tributaries can be numbered (ie named) (Crisis on Infinite Earths: Absolute Edition) and it throws all "de facto" arguments into the garbage heap. Finally both and show what looks like to the Earth-Two Superman fly pass a newspaper building with a stared globe in it (implying this is not the Daily Star but Daily Planet) ::Since Earth-Two-A already had some Earth-one elements it seems to be the most likely hypertime tributary interfacing with Earth-Two on a somewhat regular basis.--BruceGrubb (talk) 18:46, September 15, 2017 (UTC) :::Are any or all Batman appearances before #327 explicitly identified as having happened on another world? --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 18:52, September 15, 2017 (UTC) ::::Yes, Earth-Forty which technically first involved Batman in newspaper strips from 1943 to 1946. As for comics there is (Dec, 1945) which credits as Earth-Forty's first comic appearance. This means that the adventures of the Earth-Forty Batman were running concurrently with the Golden Age Batman of the comics and eventually had a comic involving him. Also Superman had a Superboy career on Earth-Forty (but in Metropolis rather then Smallville). ::::Since the list of appearances includes the ashcan Thrill Comics #1 (1940) this makes Earth-Forty on par with Earth-Two-A regarding when it first appeared. ::::The finally kicker is identifies Earth-Forty as one of the hypertime realities that appeared in . ::::So in Earth-Forty we have hypertime reality that mixes elements of Earth-One and Earth-Two that has both a Batman and a Superman who had a Superboy career and first "appeared" in 1940. It is not that much of a stretch to assume Earth-Two-A shares similar characteristics.--BruceGrubb (talk) 22:58, September 15, 2017 (UTC) I would like to point out that (1954) is nearly two years after (1952) so even Essential Wonder Woman Encyclopedia shows the being a first appearance of the Earth-One Batman is pure fanwank!--BruceGrubb (talk) 11:48, September 16, 2017 (UTC) :I would like to point out the discrepancy I posted below. edit:above --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 11:54, September 16, 2017 (UTC) ::See my comments regarding hypertime and Occam's Razor. For the TLDR crowd if we can invoke hypertime (or a documented hypertime reality) Moving towards a concensus The discussion is not going anywhere anymore. So, time to move towards a concensus. The cut off point is hazy. Noone is arguing that. * list (1964) and note how that's problematic. * list (1960) and note how that's problematic. * list (1954) and note how that's problematic. * list (1952) and note how that's problematic. * make some mention of Earth-Two-A, Earth-Forty and Hyper-Time to explain how DC has attempted to paint over this era of stories that were never written with greater continuities in mind. This has to be specific to Batman, NOT any interpretation of how the general concepts could apply here. Or any combination thereof. --12:07, September 16, 2017 (UTC) :The problem is (1952) falls under Earth-Two-A's general umbrella of what amounts to 'Golden Age Superman with Earth-One elements published in the 1940s and 1950's' because (shocker) it is a Superman story as much as it is a Batman story! Heck, it happened in Superman's own book. So this "has to be specific to Batman" idea is garbage in this case. : Given we should stick to what the majority of "official" sources say is the only logical choice for the first appearance of the Earth-One Batman. Earth-Forty is only worth mentioning because it involved Batman (in newspaper form) from 1943-1946 and thanks to Thrill Comics #1 goes all the way back to 1940 as its comic book appearances are documented and going beyond that gets into fanwank territory. :By process of elimination this leaves Earth-Two-A and hypertime distorted Earth-Two as our only two "official" options. At best Earth-Two-A seems to be limited to Superman (and perhaps Superboy) stories of the 1940s and 1950s so for stories not involving Superman that seems to eliminate that as an option. :This leaves a hypertime distorted Earth-Two as our only "official" option for the majority of after the fact continuity problems. QED. : is the only fly in the ointment but it is a The Brave and the Bold comic which generally got dumped into "Earth-B" of which Earth-Thirty-Two was a part. Given the total chaos of DC Challenge and that there were Earth-Thirty-Two stories after Crisis that seems to be a hypertime reality as well. For indexing purposes Earth-One and Earth-Thirty-Two characters are considered identical and we have extended alternate realities beyond official scope as seen with Super Friends stories which got put enmass into Earth-Thirty-Two.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:42, September 16, 2017 (UTC) ::It includes "Has to be specific to Batman's appearances". Is explicitly mentioned as Earth-Two-A? ::The problem is way beyond a first appearance listed in an infobox - it's about a hard cut-off to index appearances. Detective #327 simply will not do, no matter how "official" it is. Earth-Two-A and Hyper-Time are too vague and not helpful. We're not making pages for (Earth-Two-A), and folding Justice League appearances into Earth-Two is similarly out of the question. EWWE raises too many questions (as its purported first app of Superman is listed as Earth-Forty elsewhere). Avoiding the drama by simply linking to disambigs might work as a massive cop-out for main characters, but won't do for one-shot characters. ::"Hyper-time distorted Earth-Two" is not "our only official option", it's simply one remaining shiny turd if you throw out some other shiny turds. It's just as much fanwank as . Just because DC provided a means for people to fanwank doesn't make your interpretation of it "official". :: is a fan theory and unofficial, but it makes more sense as a cut-off than all the official stuff. If there are other DC scholars that have an idea on this - preferably books and/or guidebooks rather than blogs or chronicler's sites - we should include those as well. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 13:05, September 16, 2017 (UTC) :::Considering we all ready dumped a host of Super Friends stories cartoon and comic into Earth-Thirty-Two with no real official reason to do so your comments make no sense. :::As for this "explicitly mentioned as Earth-Two-A" nonsense remember didn't "explicitly mention" which stories happened on Earth-One and Earth-Two so that idea dies a miserable death. :::Is explicitly mentioned as being an appearance of Earth-One? No. If anything 's "Home of most of the DC action hero stories published from the mid-1950s to 1985" would exclude everything from before the mid-1950s as being Earth-One (which owuld include the 1940s Superboy stories). And before you point to the Tommy Tomorrow reference there they nullified that with the Earth-54 entry. :::Earth-Two-A's entry in The Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Index is similarly vague: effectively has to be a Superman story of the 1940s through 1950s that has details that contradict Earth-Two history. This fits to a 'T'. :::As for making pages for (Earth-Two-A) characters we already have a way to do that via "Because the differences between Earth-One and Earth-Thirty-Two characters in many cases are so minor the DC Comics Database has decided to use the Earth-One versions for the details that are identical." No new pages needed. :::EWWE focus is on Wonder Woman, not Superman nor Batman but WONDER WOMAN. This makes what it says about other characters appearances questionable at best. As for this shiny turd nonsense that only applies to what amounts a fanwank appearance based on a unofficial fanpage. I am at least an extension of official material. You are supporting pure unadulterated fanwank.--BruceGrubb (talk) 13:56, September 16, 2017 (UTC) : Please remain civil. :This is a gray area. It's Mike's arbitrary fanwank versus your vague fanwank. There is no right answer. We're not concerned about the right answer. We're concerned about the most practical solution to an age old problem - the cut off point in a gray area. That's not #327. The Brave and the Bold #28 should not be listed as Earth-Two-A, or Earth-Two. It's Earth-One. Clearly. :I never presented EWWE as anything other than another insight. It has its problems, but it is an official source and as such, cannot be ignored. You're dismissing it because it doesn't suit your fancy. :All of this is arbitrary. We've decided to go with DCindexes for arbitrary reasons. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 14:31, September 16, 2017 (UTC) This Talk Page contains all the necessary ingredients for a really good, and seemingly much needed, "... Is Confusing" page. It covers all the pro and con arguments for the different arbitrary change-over dates, but just presents them in an argumentative fashion. But gathering them in one findable, accessible page is good, so I'd like to take a stab at creating that, but before I even start, what would be the best name for it? Something less clunky than "Batman's Multiversal Start Dates Are Confusing", I hope. Stoop Davy Dave (talk) 12:12, December 17, 2018 (UTC)